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Misdeals and dealer errors in table games |
See also questions I've answered about table games in general.
I had a blackjack and the dealer paid me. Then at the end of the deal he turned his cards over and he discovered he had a blackjack. He forgot to check his hand before paying me. The supervisors wanted me to return the winnings. I refused. Seems I remember these scenario from a book on blackjack. Was I correct? - Woloshen from Montreal
I say you should have returned the winnings. I have never seen this addressed in any book. However, is a book really required? That is what you have a conscience for. You were asked to make things right, it is the right thing to do so.
May 18, 2006
A friend and I were playing blackjack at Casinos East Chicago. He was playing $50 per hand and I was progressive betting with a minimum of $100 and a maximum of $400 per hand. After about one hour, the pit boss came over, stopped the game and told us that the dealer had miscounted on an earlier hand and that my friend owed the house $100. We asked for proof. I asked them to count the cards back onto the table. They told us they could not do it because the deck had been shuffled. We then asked for some type of proof. They refused to provide it and we asked for a manager. We both stopped playing and waited about 30 minutes while the Casino amassed a group of about 8 people, including security guards with guns. A person identifying himself as the Casino Manager told us that he had reviewed the film and that the dealer had miscounted and that my friend owed the house $50. My friend was incredulous as: (i) the amount he was originally told ($100) was wrong; and (ii) the Casino Manager told us that he had reviwed the film and that we would just have to rely on his word. I tried to interject and the Casino Manager told me that this was none of my business. I told him it was because the two of us were together and he was about to loose the business of two players, including me who had brought $5,000 and was betting up to $400 per hand. He told that he didn't care and with Security with guns standing there again demanded $50. I was stupified. I paid it on behalf of my friend, gave them my player's card and told them I would never return. - Jeff from Chicago
I forwarded this story to Brian, who is a former gaming regulator and current operator. Here is what he wrote.
Mike:
This is just bad customer service. In fact, they've lost two patrons for life.
For $50, I would have coached the dealer after coming off the game and never mention it to the patron. If we had a substantial mis-pay, I would allow the patron to view the tape; however, our casino is set up so that there is a monitor in my office where it can be played back conveniently.
Most casinos have a monitor in someone's office, can burn a DVD for playback on a laptop or have a viewing room adjacent to the surveillance room. The casinos that don't have such a setup won't crack open the surveillance room for a patron.
If the patron's held their ground and refused to pay back the money, the casino would have either had to drop it or notify the Illinois Gaming Control Board that they had a dispute. If the IGCB got involved, they would send an agent to review the tape and then make a ruling - most likely in favor of the casino because they wouldn't bounce two guys simply to hustle them for $50. The patrons could also file a complaint with the IGCB, but they would be wasting their time. The best course of action remaining to them would be to write a letter to the company headquarters focusing on how poorly the situation was handled, the integrity of gaming and that the money involved is irrelevant - take the high ground.
Brian
Two years after I answered this question, another reader sent the following message about this case.
There are a number of inconsistencies with this. For starters, in the
state of Indiana (aka the location of the East Chicago casino is) security is -not-
allowed to have weapons on any type. The only people allowed to carry firearms in
the state onto a casino gaming floor is the State and Local police (in uniform) that
are on duty and the IGC (Indiana Gaming Comission). The "whities" or "white-shirts"
that are security at any casino in Indiana cannot have any weapons when they are on
the casino floor.
As it pertains to the money, it is a relatively minor amount that could
have, and probably should have, just been let alone. Floor supervisors
have leeway and can tell surveillance that they're gonna let it go since
the players in question will lose it most likely later on in the evening
(if they hadn't already by then). Also, there is no casino in Indiana
that caters to players wanting to see the "Footage" of what happened.
Surveillance goes over the incident, lets the casino manager see it if
he requests it, and then the CM takes care of it as s/he sees fit. In
general, $100 is a minor amount (in case a dealer paid a $50 bet, it was
a $100 error), however the casino itself actually -has- to take some
kind of action to "get the money back" once surveillance has notified
the CM about things like that. I'm not 100% sure why, but most likely
the answer is once a CM gets involved there's some sort of report that
goes to IGC, in which case the
casino has to make sure that we're doing everything according to "code" or
"standards" so to speak.
In general however, said floor supervisor did handle this wrong on
several levels and would have been more correct to simply let the
situation go into the events of "Oh well, I'll talk to the dealer when
he gets off the game, thank you for your careful watching". And
afterwards either replaced the dealer with a different one or watched
that particular table closer for more screw-ups.
Also, while I realize this is 2 years ago (wow - missed the date until after I was
done with everything) - Figured I would give you my 2 cents as I am a floor
supervisor and have been at a number of Indiana casinos.
Regards,
Prax
April 5, 2006
During my last two sessions at my local casino of choice, I've been on the positive end of dealer error for two different poker games: 4-card poker and 3-card poker. Both times, I remained silent and in the case of 4-card poker, certainly didn't want to ruin it for the other players. Not to rationalize, but sometimes I also feel that bringing these mistakes to light can make the dealer look worse than letting it slide -- assuming of course, the eye in the sky doesn't catch the error -- with a subsequent reprimand behind the scenes. I have a few questions related on this topic. Has there been any study or estimation relating to how dealer error affects the house edge? Certainly all but the most incoherent or novice player will catch errors that help the house, but it's been my experience that most errors that help the player are not brought to light, by players, anyway. Looking back, dealer error has given back a significant amount of money to me over the past year. Thanks for any insights! - Tim from Cleveland
I do not know of any formal study. As you would expect, dealer errors tend to decrease as the quality of the casino goes up. I have personally played thousands of hours behind the tables since I turned 21 years old 19 years ago (it seems like just yesterday). Based on all that play, I strongly feel that most errors favor the house, probably about 80%. For example, many dealers do not know that you still pay the ante bonus in Three Card Poker even if the player lost or the dealer didn't qualify. (Bluejay got shortchanged this way because he wasn't sure of the rule himself.) I've had a few dealers disagree with me on this rule, who were later correctly overruled by the pit manager. I wonder how many players, who don't know the rules as well as I do, were shortchanged by these same dealers before I played. Of course, the error is more likely to be corrected if the error favors the dealer. I tend to think the cost of errors to the casino is not very high because of the higher percentage in favor of the dealer. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if, overall, the casinos actually made money from the errors. If anyone in casino management has another point of view, I'm all ears.
Oct. 26, 2005
See also questions I've answered about table games in general.
We recently went to Casino Niagra in Canada I was playing blackjack with a full table of players. The play went around the table as normal, I stayed on 17. When it came to the dealer she had an 8 showing flip her unshown card was a ten equals 18. She then proceeded to take a hit on 18 (by mistake)and threw up a Jack which was a bust on 18. I felt this should have been a misdeal or a push for all but the dealer said no it was not valid since the house rules are dealer Stays on 17 and above and Hit on 16 and all below. I disagreed with the call and the pit boss came over and stated the dealer is correct and you lose. I sure would appreciate your thoughts as I totally disagreed with the call. Plus I had a large bet riding so maybe it is just my sore losing side coming out. I sure can't wait to get an experts thought on this once and for all. Sincerely, Janice
I side with the casino. The rules state the dealer stands on 18. The dealer has no free will and once she got 18 the 18 is firm. The extra card dealt does not alter the dealer's 18 and it was correctly burned. In a one or two deck game some casinos will reshuffle in that situation. Sept. 7, 2004
Three questions of etiquette and ethics.
- Blackjack dealer makes a mistake in your favor. Do
you point it out? Do you tip?
- The etiquette of challenging the dealer where you
think he made a mistake in favor of the house against
you.
- You wrongfully challenge the dealer, is anything
more than an apology expected?
All three have happened to me within the last month. I
am a small time bettor so the correction of a win or loss is
not significant to me. I'd prefer not jeopardize the
dealer's job. - Nathan W.
- This is a delicate question. Personally I just
keep my mouth shut. Once in Atlantic City I saw
another player correct the dealer for an overpayment
and neither the dealer nor the pit manager thanked the player
for his honesty. If the casino doesn't seem to care
then why should I? I also view making the correct
payment as part of the game. Also, no I do not tip.
Sometimes crooked dealers will deliberately overpay
players hoping to get tipped in return. This is highly
illegal and at least in Nevada they treat cheating as
a comparable crime to bank robbery. So I wouldn't want
anyone, including the dealer, to think I was colluding
on a mistake-for-tip scheme. Another reason to not say
anything is that the dealer will have to call the pit
manager over and confess his mistake. Anyone can make a
mistake once in a while but if the dealer is known to
be mistake prone already, then yes, it could put his
job in jeopardy.
- When a mistake is in the favor of the house you
definitely should alert the dealer as soon as
possible. Don't make a big deal about it, just politely
point out the error.
- It is very embarrassing to challenge the dealer,
only for the cards to show the dealer was right. When
this happens an apology is sufficient.
Dec. 27, 2004
See also questions I've answered about table games in general.
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